Local conservative candidate for one of the neighbouring divisions to Wisbech South, Steve Tierney has left a couple of comments on my blog. They are worth replying to, in full as a new post.
(Steves is in blue and my response is in black)
From
http://caligulaspalace.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/councillor-jill-tuck-authoritarian-to-the-core/
Nonsense. It does not ‘prove’ any such thing. You weaken your arguments with all this pointless mud-slinging. Jill Tuck is neither ‘nasty’ nor ‘authoritarian’. Meet her some time and you’ll quickly see that.
Perhaps you think the Council Leader is the fairy godmother? She actually isn’t. Jill Tuck doesn’t get to reverse the countries slow decline into CCTV-Central with a wave of her magic wand. The situation is the result of many social factors and governmental factors which need to be addressed first. You’re a smart guy, so I’m sure you know that.
Jill Tuck wants to use the full power of the state to remove £250,000 of taxpayers money to be spent on unnecessary projects that she herself supports. That meets my definition as being ‘nasty’ and ‘authoritarian’ or perhaps you use a different dictionary to everyone else. She could stop this waste quite easily, the conservative group, of whom she is the leader have a clear majority on Cambs county council. This particular expenditure is nothing to do with social or governmental factors. Admit it, the tories are no longer the party of low tax and small govt.
If you are serious about being a councillor then get out there are TALK to some people. The most common thing you are going to hear in and around Wisbech (well, second-most-common after ‘I’ve got a pothole’) will be “can we have a speed camera on our road?” When you tell those people how opposed you are to such things you aren’t going to gain very much support.
I’ve been out talking to plenty of people, and the message I get loud and clear is they want much lower taxes and an end to the nanny state. Something you don’t offer them.
The public have become so used to cameras everywhere it is starting to seem “normal” to them, and indeed many think of it as the obvious way to tackle crime. This is mostly because of Labour’s failures to properly man and fund the police.
Now I’m with you actually – I don’t like CCTV either. Many Conservatives don’t like the rise of the surveillance state. But we can’t seriously do anything about it without addressing those other pertinent factors first. Which means we can’t do more than gesture politics in this area until we win a general election. People need to see properly funded law and order (a Conservative specialty) to feel safe and secure again and only then will the acceptance of CCTV be something we can actually challenge.
Lets get this straight, even though you, like me, are against the surveillance state you won’t try to convince the voters of that. You are so afraid of being rejected that you are happy to lie by omission. If you actually treated the voters as decent normal people instead of voting fodder to get you into the trough, you too, would find that the voters are just as concerned about CCTV as we are and they also recognise that it does little if anything to reduce crime.
When that time comes, hopefully soon, I’ll be challenging it right alongside you – but with a blue rosette on!
In regards to taxation: you’re on a hiding to nowhere. Conservatives are the party of small government and low taxation. The fact that we are constrained by cuts and directives from a wannabe-socialist government is something we are looking forward to putting right. But offering some funding support to the Citizens Advice Bureau at a time when people are losing jobs and houses thanks to Gordon Brown’s mismanagement is absolutely correct in my humble opinion.
The conservative controlled council is happy to spend £2.5m on redeveloping the library, it is less than 35 years old and perfectly functional. The new building will have a cafe and larger toddlers play area, it won’t contain any more books.
The conservative controlled council is happy to go along with the bulldozing of the Isle college and rebuilding it at March at a cost of £70m. It beggars belief that you think new buildings automatically make the standard of teaching better.
Party of small govt and low tax, don’t make me laugh.
From
http://caligulaspalace.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/why-do-intelligent-people-do-stupid-things/
The Tories will be an excellent vote. I’m very sympathic to the Libertarian cause myself and I am a dedicated Tory.
Your party leader, David Cameron, has mentioned in several speechs that he is definitely NOT a libertarian and that he believes in extremely unlibertarian “nudge” economics”.
Let me tell the readers what “nudge economics” is. It is the idea that if politicians don’t like the behaviour of ordinary voters they can use the tax system to change it, ie politicians think ordinary people drink too much so have set the taxation on beer at 90 pence. In other words, almost a third of the cost of a three pound pint is tax. Politicians think ordinary people shouldn’t drive their own cars but use public transport instead, so about 70% of the cost of a litre of petrol is tax. Politicians don’t like people smoking so the tax on tobacco brings in £8bn a year and tobacco related illnesses only cost the NHS £2bn.
You, Steve, might think that ordinary people are there for you to push around. I don’t, that’s because I’m a libertarian.
The idea that the Conservatives will be “the same as Labour” is quite frankly ludicrous. It’s the sort of line trotted out by opposition as a desperate attempt at weak spin. I suppose Conservatives “have no policies” too? If you want to engage in proper debate, let’s do it… but give the tired (and wrong) soundbites a rest, huh?
The tories have no plans to significantly cut Income Tax, unlike the Libertarian party would plan to abolish it completely. By merely returning to the govt spending levels of 2001/2002 we would have more than enough income from other sources to immediately abolish Income Tax.
Have the improvements to our public services since 2002 really been worth 40% of everything that you’ve earned? Could you have got better value buying these services directly, leaving your family better off?
And tory plans are…..what exactly?
I find it interesting that you wonder why “intelligent” people vote for parties other than your own and then justify your supposed intelligence by what is little more than name-calling.
Jackart (the original poster) is intelligent and also a libertarian. He will be unhappy with what you do if the conservatives form the next govt. Perhaps his judgement is clouded because of his hatred and dispair over what labour are doing, so for him it’s a case of any port in a storm.
But as a libertarian he will end up disapointed with you.
The fact is, the Libertarian party is so desperately unlikely to get elected to anything much beyond very local seats in very close-fought places. Perhaps a true Libertarian is showing they are “principled” by placing their vote with you, by some people’s reckoning, but they might as well vote for a Martian.
The Tories can win (and quite probably will win). The Tories have many Libertarian sympathisers within their ranks and some in the shadow cabinet. The Tories are open to Libertarian ideas (with the few far-right members the exception.) A Libertarian is well-advised to vote Tory, then.
There are two well known libertarian leaning tories in the conservative party, Dan Hannan and Douglas Carswell, neither of which is in the shadow cabinet. The tories are NOT open to libertarian type ideas otherwise we wouldn’t get nonsense about giving married people a tax break and people rich enough to save a tax break, all to be paid for by the single working class.
In regards to your candidacy in Wisbech and NE Cambs – the sitting councillor (Simon King) and prospective MP (Steve Barclay) are both intelligent, respected, personable and hard-working men, as well as being absolutely top class Conservatives (I know both, personally) and I for one would be surprised if you could beat them in a debate, let alone an election.
There is a difference in being a good debater and having good ideas as you well know. That well known socialist Adolf Hitler was a very good orator, so good in fact that he got 43% of Germans to vote for him dispite his rhetoric about invading Russia and making Jews wear yellow stars.
Nevertheless, good luck to you. You’ll need it in Wisbech and NE Cambs. This is true Tory country. Our vast majority vote Blue because they believe in it, not just because Labour are a busted flush. If you think they are just voting ‘against Labour’ here then you’re in for something of a surprise, I think.
All three main parties have aimed for the centre ground. The Libertarian Party is something completely new in politics. We offer the voters something completely different that they can’t get elsewhere, low taxes and freedom.
What matters is not that we win power (because we don’t want to push people around, we arn’t fixated on winning at any price) but that we exist to offer a credible alternative. And that, old boy, is why your party is unable to counter us. Every since the 1950’s the main parties share of the vote has gone down and minor parties have got bigger.
The BNP is economically, 1970’s socialist labour which is why they will never amount to anything (and only take votes from labour anyway).
The greens are state control and stealth taxes by the back door.
UKIP are tory lite who hate being ruled by Europe and who only exist because people like your party leader still refuse to sanction a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
By standing we spread our message and let the voters decide.
———-
Imprint – as required by electoral law. Printed and promoted by Andrew Peter Hunt of 73 Camargue Place, Wisbech, Cambs, PE13 2SX
Totally agree. The Conservatives, sadly, are full of “Except for” libertarians- “we’re liberal, except for X, Y, Z, oh, and A through W too.”
Nicely done, I smell fear in the Blue camp. The plain fact is that people are voting blue because they know labour is a busted flush.
Congratulations!
If they attack you like this it means they’re scared.
Andrew,
When you put a message on my blog that you had responded to me and I should come back and take a look I was quite excited. I thought I was heading for a decent debate.
What I got was a party political broadcast, and not a very good one.
You didn’t answer any of the points I made (with a couple of exceptions) and instead charged ahead just saying the things you wanted to say. Why use my post at all? You might as well have just written a new post.
There were so many inaccuracies in your post, particularly relating to our local area, that I am at a loss where to start.
The Wisbech library – most renovations paid by the lottery fund, actually.
The College – The building is falling down and is in a terrible state. We don’t think “new buildings” are better than old buildings, but they are better than NO buildings. It is the LABOUR party who have dropped funding for the college and Conservatives are fighting tooth-and-nail to try and rescue the situation. I’m sure you know that.
You seem to like having a pop at Jill Tuck, but you don’t specify any detail in your criticism. The Leader of a County Council is SUPPOSED to do precisely that, lead. Nothing that is being done at County Level is purely because Jill Tuck wants it to be so. It’s party-controlled, not a dictatorship. But I’m sure you know that too.
You take a few paragraphs to have a personal go at me, which I’m not sure I appreciate but I suppose I can expect no better. You suggest i’d like to ‘bully’ people, which is a bit low really. You don’t know me from Adam, but I hope we’ll meet at some point so you can see that your criticism is far from the mark. My intention, should I be elected for my seat, is just to try and do my best to help people. I got into it for the same reasons you did, I’m sure.
I’m not going to engage with you any more at this point. It seems that, during ‘campaign season’, anything you say is going to be campaign-speak. I suppose that’s, at the very least, understandable. It’s pointless you and I bashing heads on it since we probably agree on more things that we disagree on.
Your commentor “Henry North” says “I smell fear in the Blue Camp”. Henry, I’m a pretty relaxed sort of guy. I don’t tend to get worked up about these things. But I do understand what you are trying to say and let me just put you straight. Simon King, who Andrew is standing against, is one of the best councillors in Cambridgeshire. In my most humble and very personal opinion he will absolutely, completely and utterly wipe the floor with Andrew Hunt. I don’t speak for Cllr King so I can’t say if there is ‘fear in his heart’ or not. But if I were a betting man I know where my money would be.
In conclusion, I once again wish you the best of luck Andrew. I admire somebody prepared to put themselves on the line, say what they believe and stand for election. I’m one of your constituents. I look forward to a leaflet, or being canvassed. Or something. Becoming a councillor is more than just grandstanding for your pocket audience.
This is true Tory country. Our vast majority vote Blue because they believe in it, not just because Labour are a busted flush.
I don’t think that’s true. It might have been true 20 years ago, but it isn’t now. Most people who vote Tory think the parliamentary Conservative party doesn’t represent them or care about them — instead it’s full of greedy bastards who only care about maximising expenses as an unofficial second salary, and that they’re entitled do do so and have done nothing wrong.
In the words of Anthony Steen MP “This was no fault on my part. [It's Labour's fault] because it was this government that introduced freedom of information.”
Or Nadine Dorries MP: “The first is that MPs have always been encouraged, by whatever means possible, to draw down their ACA allowance in full. This is because it was upped in place of an appropriate pay rise. The rules surrounding the ACA were deliberately sloppy in order to maximise the opportunity that MPs had to draw.”
Not that Labour are any better, of course.
@cabalamat
You are talking about the nation. In my original comment I was talking about the seat in Wisbech for which Andrew is a candidate. We are, therefore, talking at cross-purposes.
I don’t disagree that the public are angry about expenses. Most grass roots Tories are pretty angry too.
My point was that this area, NE Cambs, is a very blue area. Andrew Hunt will enjoy his campaign and I look forward to buying him a pint at some point if we run into one another on the campaign trail, but in my opinion he will ultimately trail in with a very small percentage of the vote indeed.
Steve Tierney: “You are talking about the nation. In my original comment I was talking about the seat in Wisbech for which Andrew is a candidate. We are, therefore, talking at cross-purposes.”
Are voters in Wisbech that different from voters in the rest of the country? I don’t think so.
“I don’t disagree that the public are angry about expenses.”
I think there’s more to it than that. I think people have felt disenchanted with politics and disenfranchised for years, and I think that feeling is growing. The voting share of the largest 2 or 3 parties is in long term decline. And people are effectively disenfranchised — unless you live in a marginal constituency, your vote doesn’t count. And if you live in a safe seat, your MP is more likely to be a crook.
People are interested in politics, but the political parties are a big turn-off (that’s why their membership is in decline). I think the fundamental problem is that politicians are supposed to be our servants but in fact are our masters. That’s why I favour recall elections. Politicians think they can treat us with contempt — the duck island was merely an extreme example of that — and it’s time we moved power from them back to us so they are forced to treat us with respect.
“My point was that this area, NE Cambs, is a very blue area.”
It’s an area that traditionally votes Tory. But this is because they have genrerally right-wing views, not because they feel attached to the Conservative party. Indeed, both the Conservative and Labour parties are becoming toxic brands, with negative connotations, even to their own supporters.
[...] 25/05/2009 by vision25 Steve Tierney has left another long comment in reply to the “Steve Tierney gets a reply” post here. [...]